Archive 1: 2012-2016

Robert Plank: Our guest today is Ric Thompson. He's the CEO and Founder of Done For You Solutions. His website is DoneForYouSolutions.com and he's helping small businesses around the world put into action the principles he teaches every day as far as outsourcing, as far as getting more leverage in the day, as far as improving the operations of your small businesses. We're going to have a lot of fun, we're going to talk about a lot of ways that everyone listening can get more done in less time and have more fun and remove themselves from the business, so how are things today, Ric?

Ric Thompson: Things are fantastic, Robert. Great to be here.

Robert Plank: Awesome, I'm glad you're here. As far as what it is you do and as far as outsourcing, what would... Just to make sure we're all on the same page, what is outsourcing and as far as outsourcing goes what makes you stand out, what makes you special?

Ric Thompson: Great questions, thanks for that. There is some debate like a technical or legal definition of what outsourcing is. There's a blurring of the words of outsourcing and out-tasking. Without being too anal, shall we say, in general outsourcing is having other people get tasks done that are not inside your company. They're not you, they're not your employees, that you are going beyond those boundaries to get tasks done that have to get done for your business to grow and to succeed.

Robert Plank: Okay, great, so then how do you stand out from everyone else who teaches this kind of thing?

Ric Thompson: Great question and, of course, a lot of folks do. A lot of folks have heard about the Four-Hour Workweek and getting a virtual assistant. What I came to the realization of was before VAs and outsourcing really became the hot trend I had already been doing that. I had sworn off having employees years ago for a variety of reasons and realized rapidly that you can't rely upon one person to do all the things that need to get done in today's modern world of technology, of business building, of marketing. You've got to have a team. Whether you have... I used to have employees, I had a team, I got away from that, went into the outsourcing and found it was exactly the same thing, it didn't matter. One virtual assistant couldn't do everything.

When I started Done For You Solutions back a few years ago I said, okay, I'm going to build this company based upon what I know what works for me which is let's get a team going. Instead of the virtual assistant company I'm a virtual team company. I've got web developers, I've got graphic designers, I've got, yes, virtual assistants, too, and I've got coordinators to help the clients move all that forward. The idea is that with another company if you have a single hole that you need to fill and a VA can fill it, great. For us we fill a wide range of those day-to-day holes, if you will, for website work, for research work or customer support work. Again just a wide range of that, that worker B did A type of stuff, so hit the button and get an entire team instead of having to build yourself one by one.

Robert Plank: That's cool and that sounds like... If you hire all these little specialists as opposed to the jack of all trades person then that way you have the best people for each job. You have the best writers, or the best graphic designers, or the best virtual assistants and things like that and because... First of all because you have this team of specialists then you can get the best of everything. The other side of that is that you also don't have to risk your business on some stranger, some random workers in India or the Philippines or even in the U.S. You don't have to give out your password to someone just who found you off the street that you don't trust, is that right?

Ric Thompson: Yeah, a number of things in there are all right. Yeah, and all these folks work full-time for me, so it's not like some pool of random contractors like you said. Of course, obviously at some level there is still a trust level, Robert, and let's be honest, no matter if you've got an employee or if you're outsourcing you're going to have to trust those folks with the logins to your hosting account or what have you if you want to do website work.

The biggest thing there I think to comment on is that a lot of entrepreneurs would love to have that magic, silver bullet. Let me just get that one person and have them do everything. Once in a while you do find one person with such a huge range of skills that are good enough that you can do that with. The challenge is is that I've never heard of a situation where that ends well because if you get one person doing all those things in effect that one person's your business.

What happens when they get a better job offer or god forbid, something happens to them health-wise or family-wise. When that one person is gone so is your business. By having a team you not only, like you mentioned, leverage experts at their own fields of experience and skills you're also spreading that risk around. If one person becomes sick or one person has a family problem, whatever, your business does not stop. It hits a little bump in the road, but then you keep on going.

Robert Plank: That makes a lot of sense. It's like if one piece of the machine breaks down and you can get a new part to put it in the machine, but they're not the whole machine. It's not just something where if that one person goes away you don't have to replace your entire business. Kind of along those lines as far as having a team and building a team, have you found... Is there a secret to avoiding the traps, the traps of...

One trap might be if someone ends up having to become a micro manager and they've almost made a whole other job that entails babysitting all these other workers or the trap of maybe this whole thing becoming too expensive. Or maybe if someone's paying all these other workers all this extra money maybe there's no money left over for the business or for the owner of the business. Or maybe even if they're at the mercy of some of these workers. Have you found... Is there a secret or a few secrets to building a good team like this?

Ric Thompson: Yeah, of course, there are lots of secrets that come, “secrets” that come with hard won experience. Let me share with you the top ones that I've seen, that have really tanked people's businesses or have proven to be the most costly mistakes. Number one, when you're outsourcing wherever humanly possible start small. You and I I'm sure... You've heard the nightmare stories of I hired a web design company, I paid them $10,000 to do the site, it's eight months later and I still have nothing.

Robert Plank: Oh, yeah.

Ric Thompson: It's like why, why'd you do that? Why don't you hire them to build you a homepage or break that project down to milestones where listen, I'll tell you what, first step let's design a new homepage for me. If you guys can do that on a great timeline and I like it we'll continue with the rest of this $10,000 project, but I'm not going to cut you a blank check in the get go. Start small, get them to prove themselves. Whether you're outsourcing with me or you're outsourcing with anybody else that's the idea because if they can't do that small part of the project first the odds of them doing the whole thing the way you want them to do it are slim and none.

Other scenarios like that. I have people, gosh, I'm on the speaker. I've got 120 slides, I need to make this new presentation or rebranding because I just did my logo and I need them next week. Okay, great, how fast can they turn around the first 10 or 20 slides? Did they do a great job with that? If so then give them the rest of the project. Don't give them all 120 slides and find out that next week they haven't even done one for you. Just whatever project it is start small.

Now the second biggest mistake is one that a lot of people don't think of. There's a lot of confusion with this. I draw a very, very hard line between strategic level outsourcing and execution level outsourcing. Let me dive into this here, Robert. Strategic level outsourcing is where you're at the point in a project or your business where you're asking the question should, what should I do here, how should I do this. It's conceptual in nature. If you're like hey, how should I drive more traffic, how should I use SEO, or how should I use social media, or how should I do this? That's a question for a consultant or a coach. You don't ask a web developer about marketing. You don't ask a VA about a business building

device. That is way beyond their skill set.

When you're down to this is what I need, I need these webpages built, I need this opt-in page built, I need this research done, I need these clients handled with these tasks, now we're down to execution level and you're looking for execution level workers. Two very, very different types of areas of skill set, shall we say, areas of knowledge and, quite frankly, pricing. Just like you don't want to hire a VA to give you business building advice because, of course, it's going to end in disaster you also don't want to pay a consultant for worker B level tasks. They're going to charge you consultant rates for little day-to-day tasks.

In your own mind make it very clear what you're trying to outsource. Are you trying to outsource the planning, the strategic side of things, or are you trying to outsource specific tasks and be clear in your own mind what direction you're going in. Not only do you find a good solution, you're paying appropriate pricing. Does that make sense?

Robert Plank: Yeah, it does and I hadn't even thought about that until you explained it that way. It's so simple, but I think that a lot of people are missing out on that, that there's a clear difference between a coach and a worker. It sounds like a lot of the disaster stories, so to speak, where someone turned over too much to someone or where they weren't satisfied with a job was due to the fact that they were trying to hire a worker for more of the creative or the decisions or the strategic stuff as you said.

If someone's looking to outsource their business or to remove some of the load off of themselves in the business then they'll get some time back. It might cost a little bit of money, but they can pay the high dollars to a coach to figure out the planning and figure out what should I do next and what should the webpage look like or what should I do in my marketing, get the real CEO-level types of decisions. Then when it comes time to implement then go to a worker with that clear final picture in mind and tell the worker what you want and start small on all that good stuff. That way you go to the coach and you figure out the plan and then you give the plan to the worker. Then it's very clear if the plan was fulfilled or not. Am I understanding that right?

Ric Thompson: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, because kind of flipping this around you get in situations where somebody pays a web designer thousands of dollars for a great new website. It looks great and from a marketing perspective it's horrible, it doesn't work. Or gosh, in our house with new clients I'll have a number of conversations where people are like you guys are the experts, you tell me. It's like, well, I'll tell you, I can consult with you, but my personal time having done this for decades is going to be very different than a virtual assistant or a web developer who's in there just building your WordPress pages. That WordPress developer, they'll do anything you want them to do. If they were a master marketer they would not be building WordPress pages. It's almost commonsense and yet it's just so tempting, it's so easy, Robert, to say you guys are the experts, you figure it out and let me know what I need because I'm too busy. That's never a recipe for success, shall we say.

Robert Plank: Yeah, and I think we've all heard of... We've all had at least one or maybe even one person per year or even more frequent than that try to coast on that, try to coast on saying I'm going to have the idea and I'll just give it to this team and the team will do it. Is that possible? Is it possible to have a 100% outsourced business or do people have to have at least 5 or 10% of themselves in it?

Ric Thompson: That's a great question, that's a great question. There are certainly situations where you can create systems, so that at some point in time you are removed or mostly removed because the business is on autopilot. That can absolutely be done. If you are at the very beginning stage where this is your baby, this is your vision, then like it or not you have to be involved.

Let me dive into this real quick. For any project you're looking to do or even your overall business there are four phases that a project has to go through to succeed. Phase one is dream it. This is, wow, Robert, wouldn't it be cool if we did this. Let's create a killer new podcast called The Robert Plank Show. You got all these why's. Here's why I want to do it, here's why it'd be a great idea. It's very, very sexy, very high-energy and not very structured. Phase two is to think this out where you're working with a... either by yourself or with a coach or a consultant, so you can outsource that mapping process. You can say let me go find a podcasting expert to create a game plan for me. Then you can walk through that and say here are the pieces that I need, you have to be involved.

Now as you move into the third stage which is tasking let's break this down, what does this have to be? We got to have the interview done every week or every two weeks. We got to have a webpage we have to do, we got to edit those audios, all those different pieces. Then phase four is do it where somebody's actually doing it. Now obviously in your situation your podcast is an example. You're doing it, it's your baby, you're the great interviewer, you want to have hands on.

There are larger companies, publishing companies, or even smaller companies where the interviewing skills are not the wheelhouse of the CEO. They can get somebody on their team, they can outsource that interviewing task and it could literally get to the point where the owner, the CEO is not doing anything once those systems are created and up and running. In the beginning stages, that dreaming it and the thinking it they have to be involved. It doesn't matter who it is, you can't pass off that strategic level to somebody else because you're the one... It's your vision, it's your dream, it has to be you involved at some level. Does that make sense?

Robert Plank: Yeah, it does and so I'm sort of a computer programmer and just my computer programming brain hears from you that there's a little bit of debugging involved, I guess. As you figure out what you want to do and you figure out the system and you get the kinks worked out and what it also reminds me of is... I'm sure that you have some favorite channels you watch on YouTube, right, Ric?

Ric Thompson: Sure.

Robert Plank: I think about the most successful YouTube channels or the ones that I watch a lot of are the ones that they consistently put out content, maybe something like once a week and they've been doing it for years. When I go back and look at the earliest, earliest stuff, I look at... There's a channel called Epic Meal Time or there's Gary Vaynerchuk. If you look at any of these popular YouTube people, if you look at the earliest stuff from five, seven years ago and it's drastically different. In a lot of cases they didn't have the character, so to speak, worked out. They didn't have the format worked out. Some videos were long, some were short and then you compare it to what the result is today and it could just have been a matter of they outsourced pieces of that business to make it more professional.

I always look at those content creators and just YouTube video stars springs to mind in this case. I look at the early stuff where it's rough around the edges, they haven't quite gotten all the bugs knocked out yet, but then you fast forward to today and it was definitely not an overnight process. Then the more current day stuff is better video quality, better editing, better sounds, just more slick and smooth and rehearsed and stuff like that. That's what I'm hearing from you is that there definitely is a point where people can get the well-oiled machine in place, but they definitely have to be along for the ride in the getting it all figured out stage just so that they know if they're happy with the end result or not.

Ric Thompson: Absolutely, absolutely. It's like anything else in life, it's not going to be perfect the first time around. It's going to be a learning curve for you to outsource to your team. It's going to be a learning curve for your team potentially and to get clear on what you're trying to do and how you're trying to accomplish it. Just overall anything's going to get better the tenth time you do it, the fiftieth time you do it, the hundredth time you do it. That's just how it works. When you want to get started, when you're in the very, very beginning stage and here are these tasks that I've got lined up to get my first episode or my first few episodes up and running, a quick rule of thumb, and this is not mine by the way, I've heard this probably a bunch of different times, probably a dozen different times from different experts.

When you get that list of tasks and you look at those tasks, hey, I need this video edited for my YouTube channel, ask yourself can somebody else do this task faster, cheaper, or better than I can. If the answer is yes outsource it. You just created leverage in your business. Whether that leverage is speed or that leverage is cost or what have you or quality, so just use that as a rule of thumb as you go through with your first episodes and you're trying to figure out it as part of that machine you were talking about, what do I want to do versus what should I have my team do for me. That's a great way to do it. Can they do it faster, cheaper, or better than me? Yep, fantastic, that should be somebody else's job to do then.

Robert Plank: Am I hearing and understanding you right in that you said faster, cheaper, or better, not faster, cheaper, and better. Is that right?

Ric Thompson: Absolutely, and that's a great point. Obviously, in a perfect world, Robert, hey, fantastic, a massive leverage if somebody can do it faster, cheaper, and better. Yes, that does happen. However, let's be very clear that if any one of those three conditions exists you've created leverage in your business. Yes, in a perfect world I would love to have somebody who could do it faster than I can, so I can leverage speed, who could do it cheaper than I can, so I can leverage money and who can do it better than I can which would leverage quality. That's certainly very, very possible. If only one of those exists I still win, my company still wins, my business still wins.

Robert Plank: Right, yeah, because even if one of those things are met and someone performs this task that maybe you could have done it 10% or 1% better, but that just might be a matter of you being a perfectionist. Then now that someone is performing this task that you don't have to do and that frees up an hour or a couple of hours in the day or in the week that you wouldn't have had otherwise then that's time you can then dedicate to more revenue-generating activities.

Ric Thompson: Let's take it even further out. Let's say that you can do a task in an hour that takes somebody else five hours to do it. What is that hour of your time worth? Could you be out landing the next interviewee? Could you be putting together your next product? Could you be... All those high-revenue items that you could be doing with your one hour could be worth tons more than the five hours of somebody that can do as good as a job, but they're slower at it. It's not a black and white type of question.

You really have to weigh all the different aspects and what your time is worth and what you could be doing with that because at the end of the day, Robert, here's one more huge, huge mindset shift for a lot of entrepreneurs. We are action takers. We want to jump right in there, we want to get stuff done and why would I pay somebody to do a task that I can do in an hour that takes them 5 hours? That's ridiculous. Here's the problem. You as an individual only have 24 hours in a day. No matter how efficient you are, no matter how productive you are, no matter how good you are you will never, ever, ever get more than 24 hours in a day.

You've got to treat that as your most scarce resource because you have a hard limit. Whereas with your business you are not your business, your business is not you. Your business can have 24 hours in a day, it could have 48 hours a day, it could have thousands of hours in a day because it can borrow time from people all over the world to be applied to the business needs. You, you only have 24 hours, so you really have to weigh that. Is my 1 hour of time out of that very limited pool worth it to do video editing, just to put things in perspective.

Robert Plank: Yeah, that's a pretty good insight in a number of ways because if someone were to calculate their income versus the time they put into that business and let's say that that's $100 or $200 an hour and then there's some video editor that they can hire for $50 an hour then great, in a way you just made $50 per hour that that person's working because you didn't have to put in that effort. As you're describing that it's almost like it's okay to take a little bit of a hit as I'm understanding this. It's okay to take a little bit of a hit on quality or even things like if this task takes me 1 hour to complete, but it takes someone else 5 hours, who cares, that's not my 5 hours. If I was going to edit a video and it would have taken me from 9am to 10am, but then I hire somebody to do it at 9am, I do whatever I'm going to do and they come back to me at 1pm, who cares if it took all that extra time because, guess what, it got done and I didn't have to do it.

Ric Thompson: Exactly, that kind of situation it's more a matter of what am I paying, what's my cost there. If I'm hiring somebody else to do that task for five hours and it's costing me X, or like you said what was my one hour that I regained it in my life worth X dollars or better yet X plus. If it was then it's a no brainer unless you want to be the one doing that task for the rest of that business's life.

Robert Plank: There are tasks that you've seen or that some of your clients have seen that they want to continue doing because that's what makes their business unique and that's what makes their business do its thing.

Ric Thompson: Absolutely. For instance, let's go back to your great show, The Robert Plank Show. If you had anybody else doing interviews it would be a hard sell to say this is The Robert Plank Show.

Robert Plank: Yeah.

Ric Thompson: You're a fantastic interviewer. There are other great interviewers out there and the tradeoff there would not be worth it. There are some things that as the CEO, as the visionary, as the president of the business, if you will, that's not worth trading off no matter what. However, the list of what you can get rid of is far larger than what a lot of entrepreneurs initially think of.

Robert Plank: You know what, too, if I was ever confused or lost or indecisive about what tasks that I could take out of my business, I could always go and hire a coach and have that figured out for me. I could outsource the outsourcing.

Ric Thompson: Absolutely, absolutely. I do that all the time as a matter of fact with my company, Done For You Solutions. A new client comes in, I do an introductory call where we talk about that. What are you doing in your business right now? What is not getting done? What are you doing repetitively? Let's go back to your YouTube channel. Maybe I'm talking to somebody who's got a YouTube channel. Gosh, Ric, every week I have to edit this video and get it uploaded on the YouTube channel and then I go do these postings on my social media.

It's like why are you spending your time as the CEO doing that. Go shoot the show, we can go ahead and edit that video, we can get it loaded up in your YouTube channel and update your website with it and post it on social media for you. All those tasks that are repetitive it's a great place to start to say stop, I'm done with that. Let me get somebody else to do that. I'm going to remain shooting the show because that's what I love to do and I'm the star, but all these other maintenance tasks there's no value in it. Yes, it has to get done, but not by the CEO of the company, not by the president of the company.

Robert Plank: Interesting, so the repetitive, the maintenance, the non-creative tasks are the ones that can go. Speaking of this and speaking of Done For You Solutions can you walk us through really quickly some case study where someone came to you and things just were not good and maybe they were stressed out or overworked. Things were not in the place they wanted to be and then you refined things and made it better.

Ric Thompson: Oh, gosh, we do that all the time. That's the whole idea of taking these things off of people's plates that are stressing them out or because they're having to do them or because it's not getting done. It could be a website. Hey, in the past couple of years if your website is not mobile-friendly you're toast. You're losing 60, 70% of your traffic typically in many markets. My website's 4 or 5 years old, Ric, my traffic has dropped dramatically, my sales have dropped. I have no idea what the heck I'm doing here. Now it's time to get a new website. Let's get it redesigned, let's get it modernized, let's get it going. We do that all the time.

Repetitive tasks, we mentioned that. A number of years ago one of my first clients was an email marketer and he managed multiple accounts and was constantly getting out... managing these email lists and getting out promotional emails. He spent 20 hours a week not looking for fantastic new deals and vetting new products, but 20 hours a week just taking those emails, formatting them for each of the different platforms he had and getting them out there, the grunt work if you will.

Once he turned that over to us you could imagine. Imagine adding 20 hours a week to your life. It's huge, it's transformational. It could be a matter of time and reclaiming your life a bit or it could be a matter of expanding your business or moving your business forward by getting those tasks done like websites or other type stuff that are not being done and really should be done to make your business succeed.

Robert Plank: Awesome, and I'm looking at Done For You Solutions right now and what's cool about this is that... It looks like this whole outsourcing thing isn't as expensive as many people might think that it might be. I'm looking at right now you have a package that for $400 in a month someone will put in 20 hours and for tasks like if someone needs blog content or if they need a membership site or WordPress site or even office stuff like Microsoft Excel or PowerPoint or Keyword Research.

It's pretty cool and I think that a lot of people out there maybe they think of themselves as a starving artist or they need to do everything, but what I'm hearing from you in this whole conversation is a lot of people need to figure out where the herd is and where are they working themselves too hard with these repetitive tasks. Once the business is chopped up in that way then once it's in pieces then they could hand off just a little piece to an outsourcer to try them out. Then if that's a success they can hand off a bigger piece to that outsourcer and if that's a success they can go to another outsourcer with a different skill set.

That all sounds good, but it just sounds to me like if someone were to try to do that all themselves they'd have to do a lot of research, a lot of hiring and firing and trying people out and things like that. I understand that you have this thing called Done For You Solutions where you take a lot of the guesswork out of that. Is that correct?

Ric Thompson: Absolutely, that's the whole reason we're here, kind of think of us as an HR department. We've got all those different people already in place. They're the exact same people I use for all my stuff, we use it for clients around the world. The idea here, Robert, is to keep the client focused on the more strategic aspect of their business. Like, for instance, you've got a new information product that you're going to launch out. You've got a new audio series shall we say. Okay, so your job is to figure out what's the sales model. I'm going to do an opt-in page, I'm going to do a sales page, I'm going to do a thank you page. Here's my copy for those because we don't do writing, we don't do copywriting.

Once the client comes to us and says, okay, here's what I need. I need an opt-in page. We're going to connect that to AWeber or MailChimp or Infusionsoft or whatever I've got. Here's my sales page and the copy for this. I do need you guys to find some great images. Let's connect that to PayPal, let's connect this to my shopping cart and here's the thank you page they should get when they buy. If you can map that out, if you can say this is what I need, here's the flow, do you really, really want to be the one to have to figure out all the different platforms, figure out how to build those pages, go research those images.

You've taken a project that could be up in a week, maybe two weeks by outsourcing and you've now turned it into a five or six-month project. Speed is a massive, massive advantage in your business and so you're sacrificing it if you're putting all those tasks on you. Now if you're absolutely, completely flat broke and you have no other options I understand, but be aware that you're adding a boatload of time before you can actually be making money. You're losing months potentially of that income potential, so again it's a tradeoff.

Robert Plank: Right, and as you're describing that if someone is delaying the destination, I guess, or they're delaying the time it takes to get to that moneymaking stage they might give up. It's like if you have this business and if someone's only a month away from making money then great, they can have that month to power through and do those things that need to be done. If you tell someone you're not going to make money for nine months, you're not going to make money for two years I might as well give up now, so that sounds really great.

Also, as you were describing that, going back to the computer programming brain that I have, there's this thing called the Iceberg Principle where you see an iceberg and it looks really tiny because what you're only seeing is 10% of it. The Titanic sunk because they said oh, it's just a piece of ice above water, but then the whole city-sized chunk of ice was underwater, so there's that part of it in that a lot of the time and work that goes into things is just getting it just right.

It's easy to say, okay, make a landing page, hook it up to AWeber, make a webpage, hook it up to PayPal. Then if the AWeber form isn't performing correctly or if the PayPal button doesn't work or if that form or that landing page is a little bit off, that could easily be hours or days or weeks for someone who is inexperienced going down the rabbit hole trying to learn. It's almost like getting multiple college degrees just to do this thing that would take an expert two minutes to get figured out. I love this idea of outsourcing, I love the way that you've laid it out for us, Ric. Your website is DoneForYouSolutions.com and you have a free gift for our listeners for this show, correct?

Ric Thompson: Absolutely, and this goes back to some of the comments you made earlier in the show. We didn't really dive into it too much, but we want to start small, kind of going back to that. I understand that people had challenges with outsourcing before, so what I'd like to do for the listeners of The Robert Plank Show is I'd like to offer to buy the first 10 hours. We're not talking about a life-changing offer here, we're not talking about totally revamping your business, but there are a number of things that can get done in 10 hours to really give us a great trial run, shall we say, see how we do. Then we can go into from there an ongoing membership with you of a minimum of 5 hours a month up to 40, 80, 100 hours a month, whatever your business needs. The idea is let's go back to start small. I'll pay for the first 10 hours, give us a shot. That is at DoneForYouSolutions.com/trial.

Robert Plank: Awesome, DoneForYouSolutions.com/trial. Everyone listening should go right there right now and once again that is DoneForYouSolutions.com/trial. If you're listening in the car, pull over, write that down. If you're listening on the website we'll have a link to that in the show notes. Thanks so much, Ric, for opening all of our eyes about outsourcing and showing us that there is a better way where we can have a better business, have a business that grows more, have a business that is less stressful, takes less time and at the same time having all of that doesn't require having a lot of overhead. We can have the best of both worlds, we can have our cake and eat it, too, whatever analogy people want to use. Outsourcing is definitely the way to a better business and a better life. Thanks for telling us about all that cool stuff and DoneForYouSolutions.com/trial, so I appreciate you being on the show, Ric.

Ric Thompson: Thanks for having me. I'm very excited to be in the latest episode here and in a fantastic, fantastic series.

Robert Plank: Amy Coello is going to be talking to us about spiritual dream interpretation, and she is the wife of Robert Coello and the mother of 11 children. A successful author, teacher and business owner with 20 years experience in the legal field. She's currently filming the show "Journey into your dreams" so Amy welcome to the podcast.

Amy Coello: Thank you so much for having me.

Robert Plank: Glad that you're here so just to kind of kick us off I have two quick questions for you, but I think they're easy questions. The first question is why are dreams so important for us, and the second question is what makes you stand out as opposed to anyone else who does this dream interpretation stuff.

Amy Coello: Well they're important because... I've been teaching on dreams for well over a decade I traveled internationally. I've studied every culture out there. I've studied the psychology of dream interpretation the young and the old and the understanding having a tour of a brighter understanding, and everything in between. I really wanted to hone in and grab on what is this. I've always been a dreamer. Of course everybody is a dreamer. One time I had a dream that was so specific and it actually came to pass. It flipped me out. I was like wait a minute there's got to be something to this. I kind of honed in on that, and when I realize I could interpret dreams it was like this parabolic language. This hidden language. I kind of dove in this study and culture.

I come from the corporate world. I am in more analytical. I've been in law for 24 years. I ran my own company for a number of years it's kind of like a odd change for me to move from corporate over to spiritual understanding and I think that's what makes me different in that I combine the two. A lot of corporate people either teach from a corporate aspect, and spiritual people teach from a spiritual aspect. Very rarely do you find that type of market where it's both We're starting to see this kind of a up-rise people in the corporate world saying hey there's something bigger out there why don't I take my spiritualism and bring into what I do every single day. Dreams are important because they give divine guidance and divine wisdom, and they will actually give you very specific information about what to do next. They will guide you. I run a mentorship group of corporate people. The mentorship group is called dreams for launch. It's basically gain your dream assignment project into intervention, and bringing that to a place where you launch it. Putting a action play into those dreams.

I'm giving an example because it's so interesting because just last... three nights ago I had this dream. It was a very very specific and very clear. I was directed to do a info product on the freedom spirit which basically means how do we walk in love, peace, joy, patients kindness gentleness and self-control. How do we stay in that and not I've home at 5 o'clock in the evening and somebody cut us off and we draw the finger and start cussing.

How do we stay in that so that we can hear relevantory information. The moment you step out of that peace love Joy... the moment you step out of that you don't hear anything. Really you're just like fair game to lack of control, chaos, stuff like that. In the dream, I was given this dream and it was a very specific info product to sell and in the dream I was given the introduction. The dream told me, God told, me circle the introduction around perfect love cast not fear. I woke up and I'm like hey that's the next info product. Here we go how can I lose? I think that's why it's important because we have a group of people experiencing just that thing just exactly what I mentioned. Maybe they're creating a service. Maybe God's telling them to market to a certain audience. Maybe he's honing in on a target audience or... so dreams are not so much about... we think dreams are this weird ton of pink flying elephants kind of dreams that we just don't know what to do with, and until we hone in and start reading our dreams and learning how to interpret the symbols of the language there's so much more out there that were not tapping into as entrepreneurs.

Robert Plank: All of that kind of just starts my brain almost lit on fire just thinking about all the ways that Life can be easier and life can actually have meaning. I mean you've spent 20 years in the legal field, and we all know that stereotype. We have all experienced some of that I don't know losing your soul to the corporateness of it and just... working those long hours.

Amy Coello: All the devil.

Robert Plank: Just getting through the day, and having more caffeine, and putting in those long hours and all nighters. Especially like the last month or so for me, Amy, I've just been very aware of the importance of that self-care, and self-reflection. Waking up early and having the quiet time, and getting on all these long walks. It helps so much just to reduce to stress, and at the same time, sort of like you mentioned before, to not become like the person that meditates 8 hours a day. Only eats all vegan food. There's definitely a way to have your cake and eat it too it sounds like where you can only be the best self you can, be fulfilled, be productive, but then also have these tools and tap into your dreams to solve the problems in your waking life it sounds like.

Amy Coello: Yeah. Absolutely. It's interesting. You can either... there's a balance between hugging a tree and hugging a pencil. We come to that balance, and what I found and what I teach to my mentorship group, is that you've got to hone in because if you don't as an entrepreneur. You and I both know you will cast seed everywhere all day long, right, because you're just spinning wheels. What will hit. If not this, then this, and if not this, then this. You spend all your time building this product, and yet now you don't know how to market it. Entrepreneurs struggle with having to be their accountant, their marketing department, their writing department, their video department, their... As entrepreneurs, we will... we can have like to hone into what we are good at, and fail to do that other part. Well, guess what, God can be your business partner. If we listen, and we tap into that, the direction that we hone in on. I could've gotten up that day from that dream, and thought "Oh, whatever." Gone and did some filming on whatever it is I was doing instead of going "you know what, I'm going to tap into this." That dream. I'm going to follow this dream out. AS I begin to follow that dream out, it's going to save time. It's going to save energy. It's going bring peace because you know what you're doing is locking arms with the spirit realm. How do we loose, right?

Robert Plank: Yes. Just drive it, and see what happens. AS you're explaining this, it kind of just makes me think that well... I wish I could remember more dreams, and I wish that my dreams were as specific as what you described where I dream specifically said make this 9 part information product. Is there a secret to even remembering dreams? Because I know that I have them. Some days I'll wake up, and I'll be in a good mood for whatever reason, or I'll have some kind of random thought in my head, or some kind of problem that I hadn't had solved. I went to bed, and I wake up and now I kind of figured it out. I know I have dreams, but I would say that I only remember maybe one dream a year. It's usually something weird, and I'll remember that thing. I'll go to a dream dictionary, or I'll do a Google search, and Ill search for "I dreamed about eating steak," or I'll dream about some kind of person was like arguing with me. I've heard about that part, and I've heard about things like have a dream journal next to your bed. I did that, but I couldn't remember anything to write down in the journal, and I've earn about things like play some kind of hypnosis video. Say something mantra before bed, and I've tried all these different things, but no matter what I do. I'm not able to remember dreams on a consistent basis. Is there a secret to remembering more?

Amy Coello: It's not really a secret. A few things you just said are what we recommend. One of the things that I recommend is just getting all the electronics out of your room. We spend so much time looking... going to bed after we scrolling through whatever it is on our phone. That puts off energy. Dreams are energy. God is light. Light is energy. Here's this fight. We have the host energy, which is our electronic, EMS, and stuff like that. We help people get all of that out of your room. Prepare a place to hear.

Open the dream journal next to your bed. Here's what I tell people. If you do it consistently. What I mean is, don't go "Oh, I tried that." No. What I mean is give your heart permission to dream again. Like you said, I said all the mantras and whatever, yet you say I believe that my dreams contain a valid message from God. I'm going to pay attention to my dreams. You may have to do that for as long as you have failed to pay attention. You just keep going into that.

Even if you wake up, and you just remember writing on a piece of paper. Okay, I'm going to write that in my dream journal. Writing on a piece of paper. Why? Because why do we write it down? Because when we're writing, there's scientific evidence that says that when you scribe. When you write. You're actually writing on your heart. Your heart has memories. We tell people write in your dream journal even if it's just a little bit. Maybe a glimpse of something, or maybe you just feel something, and you write that down on your journal. You got to pick a time because as entrepreneurs, we are so passionate. We'll get up and go "Oh, that was weird." Shake the dust off our feet, get your coffee, and head out to whatever we're doing. We busy, busy, busy. When we take that quite time, and we take those walks, and we ponder and meditate on what I call the Night Season. The ministry of the night season. We enter into that place. We give our hearts permission to dream again. When you start opening up your dream life, when you start writing it down, it starts to come little by little. Here's the thing, God's going to speak to you anyway. He'll speak to you through dire situations. He'll speak... he's going to get your attention. I would rather it be at night, and me in my quiet time versus a tragic situation. Take that time to meditate. Make those declarations. Get all the electronics out of your room. Pay attention to what you're feeding off of, so if I'm watching like crime or murder mysteries before bed. Clearly, I'm setting myself up for something that I don't want. I make it a habit to make sure I'm eating on things that tare fruitful for my life. The dreams come. They do come. You have to be faithful on your end to continue writing them down even if it's just a little bit. Even if you're just journalism your feelings of what you though when you were sleeping. Here's the deal. I can tell you when I go speak at places, I can tell where a person is spiritually the dept of the level of spirituality based on their dream. When you're just starting to dream, pay attention to those twilight dreams. Those are the ones that happen 5 minutes before you wake up. Those are very very powerful dreams. If you're on a Sunday afternoon, eat some lunch. Set your alarm. Set it for about an hour. You will wake up in the middle of a dream. You got to practice dreaming. It's a gift. It's an art form. When you do that, go ahead and hone in. When you hone in, it's like God, the Universe, the Great light whatever you call this thing that's bigger than you that's pulling you into your path of destiny. It's going to meet you where you're at, but you can't just try it out. We're entrepreneurs. We'll bounce.

Robert Plank: We'll get distracted. What you're saying is instead of treating it like a hobby, it needs to be something that maybe you dedicate yourself to. What you're telling me is, a quick boost or a quick fix first of all is to remove electronics from the bedroom, and to not look at any screens for maybe a while before going to bed. It's not going to happen overnight, but maybe I have to decide I'm going to spend the next thirty nights, the next ninety nights, just repeating this thing over and over. The best part of all that of what you said is that at first it might just be a stance, it might just be two sentences. AS it repeats more and more as I build up this skill, it's kind of weird to think of remembering your dreams as a skill. But the way you're describing it sounds exactly like that.

Amy Coello: Absolutely. Here's the great part. They become more and more specific to where it's not always very symbolic, but very direct like it was with me.

I was just talking to a counselor before I got on the show, and we were talking about one of her clients. She had a dream about this certain client maybe a week before, and in the dream the client was very resistant to something she was... She was at the client's house swimming in their pool. The client came out, and was very resistant to her. Now, this client and the counselor are... have been together for many years, and it had never been a real problem. Water represents spirit, so she was swimming in the water, and there was something that the counselor was going to bring to the next session that was spiritual that the client was going to resist.

It's unusual because that's not that client's typical behavior, so she kind of didn't have a break for it until the very next session. There was resistance. She was already prepared for it, so she was able to say listen I understand you're resisting because it's spiritual. I understand all of your thought processes on that, but could you just trust the process and bring your guard now so we can test this theory out. She was already prepared for that just based on what she does for a living. It gets very specific the more you do this the guidance becomes very clear. Your dreams go from being pink flying elephants to write this information product, and it's going to be a nine week course and here's the introduction.

Robert Plank: Nice. I mean, that is the goal. If I could get my dreams that specific, then that's what I want. As you're describing all this, you're talking about like God, and spiritual stuff, I'm not super religious. Lately, I've just realized that whether I fully believe in it or not or whether I believe in a divinity or I'm tapping into whatever. It's like I realize as I'm sitting at my desk, or I'm walking, I'm driving my car, or whatever I can only really focus on maybe four or five things at once. There's this subconscious mind that's this huge computer. If we knew everything out subservience was thinking, it would be a firehouse of information. If we're locked out of , then that's not good either. This seems like a skill that everyone needs to pay very close attention to and as we get our dreams skill built up. We get it to more advanced stuff, do you know much about lucid dreaming? Do you have any advice about really going into the power zone with that?

Amy Coello: Right. Lucid dreaming is a gift. I have found that either people naturally can do it, and they've been doing it since they were young. But there's also a place where you can practice lucid dreaming. It takes practice. It takes awhile. I know people who just do it on a regular basis, and I'll give you an example of someone who would... someone in our group who practices lucid dreaming.

The woman was not typically a lucid dreamer, but she came home. It was a Sunday afternoon. She had been at a restaurant with some friends. She comes home and she takes nap. Her daughter who's 17, she's out doing her thing on Sunday afternoon. In the dream, she saw a car crossing on intersection, and it got hit on the driver side door. She realize it was her daughters car. IN the dream, the police came to her house, knocked on the door, and she woke up in a panic really. She said she of course texted her daughter, and she said "Where are you, what are you doing." Her daughter's like "I'm fine." So she said "Just be careful," so she goes back to sleep. She practicing lucid dreaming. She's very involved in dreams. She goes back to sleep, and she goes right back into the dream. Just like we do when we're dreaming. We get up, go to the bathroom, we come back and fall right back into the dream. When you do that, that's the first level of being able to lucid dream. Level number one.

She goes back into the dream, and she's able to recognize that she's dreaming which is what lucid dreaming is. You are in the dream, and you are aware that you're asleep and you're in the dream. She is able to change the scene. She has the dream completely over again, but this time it hits on... the car still gets hit, but it hits on the back end of it. Not the driver side. Sure enough, if she did not wake up again from that dream... her daughter was in a car accident. It hit in the back end of that car.

Robert Plank: Woah.

Amy Coello: You and I can say "Well, why didn't you dream that she didn't get in the car, and get in the car accident in the first place." I mean, if you're lucid dreaming, those are different steps in lucid dreaming. You're able to go in and change the dream. I tell people all the time well... They tell me you have this dream that is a reoccurring dream, it happens all the time that someone's chasing me, and I'm running and I'm running. I just can't get away. I'm running molasses. A lot of times we say, go back... when you have the dream again, recognize you're dreaming. When you do, turn around to the pursuer and tell them to stop. Or we'll tell people to turn around for the pursuer, ask them what they want from you. That's even greater. That's the next level of dreaming being able to communicate with whatever you're having this reoccurring dream. Reoccurring dreams are very very common. Reoccurring dreams are like God with a megaphone going "Hey, we can't take you to the next level of success and abundance until we deal with this issue right here." Reoccurring dreams are generally... the issue you have. That core issue that you have in your life. I'll give you an example. Mine is running like I'm running and being chases, and I can't chase. I'm running through molasses as well. That core issue is thriving. I'm an entrepreneur. We strive that's what we do until we learn not to. If I'm not careful, I'll kick open doors because I'm educated. I'm talented. I know what I'm doing. I'll kick open doors that were never meant to be open, and then a year later I'm spinning out of control because it wasn't a door that God was opening for me. Because of my striving, I can kick that door open and go do it anyway. When I have that dream, I can recognize "Oh, I look around and think Amy what are you striving for. What door are you trying to kick open that you're not supposed to walk through." Those are why we have reoccurring dreams.

Robert Plank: Interesting. It's like our subconscious subtle way of telling us "Well, if you don't deal with this problem soon then it'll be worse" or this is a thing you've been ignoring, and we need to fix. As far as like... let's say we get to the stage where we can remember our dreams more, and they get more specific and move into lucid dreaming. IN that category, many a few years ago, I read upon stuff like this. They said things like if you're in a room while you're awake, flick light switches, or look at a clocks and numbers. Look at your hands a lot. It's only worked once in my life. One time in my life I had a dream where I looked down at my hands, and it was almost like I was blinded by the sun. I couldn't quite look at my hands without it like hurting. Maybe for minute or so, maybe two minutes, I was aware of the dream. I knew I was dreaming. I could control things, but that is literally the only time in my life that I was able to get that. Are there things that we can do once we start remembering our dreams, stuff like that, things we can do dive into that lucid dreaming?

Amy Coello: Yes. I typical will tell people in my classes. What you can do is... use Sunday afternoon to do this, and instead of working crazy amounts of hours on Sundays like we usual do. Take the time. Go to bed. Set your alarm. Try to wake up during that REM phase which is every night you're having a dream, you go from alpha to delpha to beta. It's in that REM phase that you start dreaming. In about that hour, hour and half, set your alarm and wake up in it. What's happening is you're making yourself become aware of when you enter into REM.

Throughout the day, throughout your day, you start telling yourself "I am in a lucid dream, and when I'm in the dream, I will know I'm lucid dreaming because I will look at my hand. I will see my hand, and I will know I'm lucid dreaming." You begin to give yourself specific instructions, and it may not be tomorrow. You probably had it once in your life because you're focused on other things. My focus is on dreams. That's what I do. I'm n business, but I'm in the business of dreams. But you're not. If you're a car dealer, you're not. You're just not, but if you take the time to make this a part time job of yours because why. Why? Because there is a place where you are specifically guided and given direction that will make your schedule and your business streamline. It will streamline. It will give you... here's the deal. It'll even tell you who not to do business with. It will reveal agendas.

Robert Plank: Interesting.

Amy Coello: Not only that, it will also remove the locks out of your way that when you're trying to manifest something, and you're believing in something enough to be able to bring it about. A lot of times, we can't. It just will not manifest. Because there's a block there, and to even hone in and go in and tell you where that block is. We call that inner healing.

I had a client in my group who had this dream. Struggling with rage. Struggling with rage. Nicest person I've ever met, but then there was this part of them just got really angry with his family. If he has a dream, he comes back, he says okay I've had this dream. The whole dream is taken place in an amuse park, but there was once part of this amusement park that was blocked off. When he peered in the window, there was nothing in there. He thought maybe even there was supposed to be some construction or something, but at this amusement park there's nothing in there. Well, there's some other parts to the dream, but what that told me was that amusement park is his brain. There's park block off. We need to let's go in, look at where that part is, and we're able to guide him through. When part of the dream had to do with a girl who he was naked with in the dream, and then she didn't want to be with him anymore. Okay, well that tells me something. Who was the first girl that you exposed yourself and was transparent with and protected you? Sure enough, seven years old, her name is blah, blah, blah.

We're able to go in and talk about that. Bring it to the surface because that was an underlining trigger. It was a trigger point for this person. We can even go in and look at a lot that will help you get tot he next level.

Robert Plank: It sounds amazing, but also kind of spooky in a good way. As you were describing this, what was going through my head about that was just that we all do things that keep ourselves healthy. We eat right. We exercise. We take our car to the shop. We all should also take care of our mind as well as our body. It sounds like a lot of people who aren't aware of their dreams, or people who aren't aware that they should be improving this dream skill. It sounds like a lot of people are missing out on the insights and all trial and error. It sounds like a lot of people, especially us entrepreneurs, could short cut years maybe even decades of mistakes, frustrations, loss time, aggravation, and all that good stuff. If someone is listening to this, and they like what they hear, or even if they're just a little but curious. They want to know more about this dream stuff. They want to know more about us Amy. Where can they go to find out about all of this?

Amy Coello: I want you to join me on Facebook at Amy Coello. My public page, I don't have anymore room on my private page. Go to my website amycoello.com. You can click on the learn tab, and we've got our dream circle mention ship group right there. We also have eyes2c.org. That's our dream journal. It's an online dream journal. Go int there, start recording your dreams in there. Put even just the tiniest bit. Record just even... you know, feelings. It's a spiritual journal. It's not even just a dream journal. It's a spiritual journal. Keep your thoughts, and what's going on in the morning. Spend sometime and go do that. If you have trouble with the dream, you can click Submit my Dream Team. We've been together for many, many years, and they will help you interpret that dream. It's actually a research project. We believe. We know that God is speaking to you individually though your dreams, but what must he be saying to us collectively. We might go through dark theories with the Dallas shooting. We knew the time, the place, and the city that the city was going to happen. If we called the FBI and said, "Hey. We had couple of people who had dream about the shooting." The FBI would have profiled us and hung up on us. What if we had 241 people who had that dream now with us?

Robert Plank: I think so.

Amy Coello: Yeah. I think so too, and that's our research project. Go in and champion with us. Keep your dreams in there. Submit it because when you pay for that dream interpretation, that's what helps us pay for our research project.

Robert Plank: Cool. How much is a dream interpretation for you these days?

Amy Coello: I think it's $19, and you have the opportunity to keep going back and forth with the dream interpreter. They're doing to interpret the dream for you, and give you some advice and stuff.

Robert Plank: Cool. I mean, yeah, especially for us people who are not necessarily employees or might have high stress for us to make these decisions. $19 in order to solve even a small problem that prevents us from losing $1000 or cost us to make $10,000. That is for sure a bargain even if it is kind of weird, and maybe what people aren't used to. Everything that you described today sounds like this is something that literally every human being alive needs to pay very close attention to.

Amy Coello: Everybody dreams. No one's talking about it.

Robert Plank: They need to. The thing about all this dreams stuff is, I'm not just here to listen to some facts and figures. I'm going to be applying this myself with the dream journal. The meditation. The Sunday afternoon naps, so that I could get back to not only remembering my dreams, getting them more specific, and also controlling it. Replaying it and reliving the dreams so that I can change the outcome, and get those breakthroughs. That is AmyCoello.com and that is on Facebook Amy L Coello and that is eyes2c.org. Thanks for being on the show today, Amy, and sharing all your unique and clever insights about dreaming. I really appreciated you being on.

Amy Coello: Thank you so much for having me. I truly appreciate it.

Robert Plank: John Lagoudakis is one of Australia's leading internet marketers and back in 2007, he stumbled across affiliate marketing, and within two years was able to go from zero dollars online to being one of ClickBank's top 100 affiliates worldwide.

He's been featured in the New York Times best seller, Get Rich Click, list for his book, and has authored several books and has a long running internet marketing podcast.

Today, John helps businesses to get more exposure online, more leads, and to make more sales.

How are things today, John?

John Lagoudakis: Great. Thank you, Robert. Appreciate you having me on your show today.

Robert Plank: Awesome. I'm glad you're here and I'm sure that having you on, we'll be able to fill in the gaps for a lot of people. Your whole business and everything you do is through this process called ClickBank. Is that right?

John Lagoudakis: That's how I got started. It was a great place to start. There's many ways to get started online. I chose ClickBank. That was really big back in 2007. A lot of people were making good money from it. You didn't have to have your own product. You can promote other people's products, their commissions, excellent. Anywhere between 50 to 75% of the sale is yours. Sometimes even 100%. That was rare.

It was easy to promote, too. Back in 2007, you could go onto Google AdWords. You had heaps of traffic. It didn't cost you too much back then. You could do it back then. You can't do that now. It was just very easy. I opened up a Google account, promote the ClickBank products. You could see your commissions instantly. I was totally guilty of this. I think many people are guilty of this. We log into our affiliate accounts and want to see, have we made a sale yet? Have we made a sale yet? It was a fun, easy, way to get started and I had success with it.

Robert Plank: Awesome. A couple of things about that, one is that I'm kind of hearing that a few times you're mentioning that maybe in this day and age, is ClickBank still a good option for people to use nowadays? What's changed in the past 10 years or so with ClickBank?

John Lagoudakis: ClickBank is still a fantastic place to get started. How you promote your ClickBank products is very different today. As I mentioned, you can't use Google AdWords as an affiliate. You can create your own... Sorry, I should clarify, too. What I mean by that is, I was sending people from Google that would see my ad, that would click on my ad, and they would go straight to the product sales page on ClickBank. It was just my direct affiliate link. You can't do that today, but what you can do is send traffic to your own website where maybe you're reviewing products or you're an authority site and you're recommending products. Whether through your email list or directly on your website through links and banners. You can do it that way, send traffic to your own site and then from there, send them to ClickBank.

Robert Plank: That makes sense. What you're saying is basically, just to make sure everyone is all on the same page here, ClickBank is this platform where anyone who wants to sell anything, make a website and then take payments and deliver a product, can deliver that in ClickBank. The power of what you're saying is that they have a huge network of affiliates. If anyone has something to sell on ClickBank, then there's all these affiliates already ready to promote, already plugged in. Then from the point of view of anyone who's first getting started, looking to make that first dollar online, they can register with ClickBank as an affiliate and promote something there.

Having said all that, what you're saying is in the past ten years or so, there's a few extra hoops to jump through. One of those that you're explaining is that it used to be that if you found a weight loss product or something, you could go and find it on ClickBank, grab your link, set up a Google ad, and then just be running, keep refreshing your stats, and see if you're getting traffic, if you're getting sales, then that would be it.

What you're saying is now, there are more rules in place than there were before. Now if someone was looking to do that method, they still could target Google traffic and Google ads and send people to a site, but now they have to have their own site. Now they have to send that Google traffic to an authority site, to a blog, or maybe they're making reviews on this weight loss product. Then, once someone clicks from Google onto that person's blog, then they can click on those affiliate links, and then go to the site and then buy. It's similar but there's a few steps and rules nowadays it sounds like.

John Lagoudakis: Yeah, exactly.

Robert Plank: Cool. ClickBank's great, selling on ClickBank is great, being an affiliate on ClickBank is great. As far as John Lagoudakis goes and ClickBank, what makes you stand out as far as the other ClickBank sellers, and as far as other people teaching about marketing on ClickBank?

John Lagoudakis: I used to teach people about ClickBank and how to do that, but because things have changed and I've sort of moved away from that myself. What happened was, knowing that Google was going to stop allowing affiliates to promote ClickBank products the way I was doing it, I decided to move onto something more stable where I wasn't relying on one thing, putting all your eggs in one basket. What I started doing, Robert, was email marketing. You have more control over lists. The problem with sending traffic straight to, whether it's your own product or someone else's product, straight to a sales page, the problem with doing that is that you're going to make some sales, yes, but what about the 98% that don't buy? Typically on a sales page, a good one converts at around 2%. You'll make 2% of the sales. The other 98% of visitors, you lose them.

The better strategy is to get people onto your email list and then start promoting your products, and not just promoting your products, but it's a better way to create a relationship with people, too. When they're on your email list, you can give them great content as well, create that goodwill, as well as promote products. Not just once, but for as long as they remain an active subscriber.

I took my focus away from promoting products again as an affiliate just straight on Google AdWords, two, building my list and email list, and then promoting products. Then I took it a step further and I started creating my own products and promoting those first. For those that weren't interested in my products, then yeah, I could promote related affiliate offers as well. That's definitely the way any business needs to go. It doesn't matter which business you're in, you need to be building your email list. Sometimes an SMS list is appropriate, especially if you have a local business. That's a must also, as well.

Robert Plank: Is this the correct order someone should be going in? Would a good plan for someone who is looking to make a new income stream, should they be doing it in this sequence? First, they promote an affiliate offer, then they look into adding on the email marketing piece, then if they're having success there with some sales and with some subscribers, then they should move on to their own product? Is that a good, logical step-by-step sequence for people?

John Lagoudakis: That would be a good strategy if you're not sure if the offer that you're going to promote to your list is going to convert well. You don't want to go through the trouble of creating an email marketing campaign, meaning setting up your landing page and setting up an email campaign, writing up the sequence, and then sending it to an affiliate offer, if you didn't know it was going to convert well.

However, because we know which products convert well, the great thing about ClickBank and other networks like JVZoo today, if you're promoting physical products, like Commission Junction, is that you can go in and you can see how each product is rating as far as an affiliate is concerned. You can see in an instant how many affiliates are making sales with a product today. What I tell people, what I tell my clients, is if you're going to promote affiliate offers, go into the networks, pick the ones in your niche that are selling the best because you know that they're going to convert well. They're typically good products and products that sell. The conversion rate of the sales page is really good.

Knowing that, having that information before hand, what I tell people when they're starting out is start building your list right away. It's the most important thing. The number one regret of most successful marketers have is that they didn't start their list earlier. Right from the beginning, I say, start a list and then once you get people on your list, and even immediately, you can start. When someone ops into your list and subscribes to your list, you can send them to an offer straight away. That could be a "Thank You" page, if you like. It's not like you're delaying the sales process or anything, but it is so important to start building a list. It's the most important thing you'll do in any business that you have.

Robert Plank: I like that advice. I also wish that had been my advice starting out. If you think about it, there's all these products plugged into ClickBank, and these are all products that someone took the time to make the product, whether that was recording videos or whatever, to make the sales letter, to change it over how many years to make it to convert, to reduce the refunds, to add all these up-sells. What's cool about starting as an affiliate is all those things are already done for you.

If an affiliate focuses just on building the list, then that's a lot of steps taken out of the process. They only have even an hour or two a day to focus on building their online business, well then that doesn't have to be. They spend an hour writing emails and making products. They can spend an hour setting up ads, or they can spend an hour getting new link backs and things like that. It sounds like because of ClickBank, and because of affiliate products and affiliate networks, and especially that these networks show how well these things are selling, that people can just hit the ground running. Is that right?

John Lagoudakis: Definitely. You'd be surprised just how long it takes to do all those things you mentioned, Robert. Picking a niche, creating a product, a sales page, everything that's involved with having your own product and selling it, there's so much involved. If you don't have a product that you want to sell online, one of the worst things you can do is spending a lot of time creating a product and then trying to sell it. Definitely being an affiliate first is so helpful because what you learn in the process is which products sell. By being an affiliate and looking at what's the highest converting products, you learn a lot about your market.

If you don't do that first, if you just come in and say, "I'm going to create a product," not only is it going to take you a lot of time to set that all up, but many times, you're not going to create something that the market really wants. Unfortunately, what necessarily we think will be a good product is not necessarily what the market wants.

Robert Plank: That makes a lot of sense, and it makes me think of all kinds of historical examples where like some car came out that everyone hated, or everyone hated tablets at first. It seems there's all these cases in history or in businesses where businesses spent millions and millions of dollars, and they still got it wrong. Even if Apple or Microsoft or Ford can't get it right, even with their millions of dollars of research, then I don't think I'm going to get it right just by guessing. The only way I can really trust it is, like you said, promote some stuff and see what makes sales.

John Lagoudakis: Yeah, and what a lot of email marketers do that's a great idea as well, as you build your list, ask your list, too. Send them an email and say, "Hey, I'm looking to create a product and I want to know your feedback. What is it you want?" You don't even have to say you're going to create a product. Email your list and say, "What's your biggest frustration?" Then find out. What is their biggest need? What's their biggest desire? If you see a trend, especially if there's no one in the market providing a solution for it, then that is where you want to be.

Robert Plank: I like it. I'm thinking and looking at the ClickBank market place right now. I like to go to ClickBank to get ideas about different angles of things and that. What's cool about ClickBank products especially is that it's not like the highest selling weight loss products will be just about generic weight loss. When I think about a ClickBank product for weight loss, I think, okay, there's a ClickBank product for how to lose man-boobs, or how to lose a belly, or how to remove cellulite. I think about all the products that you always see in the top ranking. That's kind of cool. It's almost like they've blazed the trail before all of us. ClickBank was going after that with that approach. People have a problem, they have a need. The ClickBank products, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the ClickBank products are really geared towards these desperate kind of problems, right?

John Lagoudakis: Exactly, Robert. That's exactly right. You don't want to go too broad and say, "Weight loss products." You want to break it down to a sub-niche. You want to get rid of your man-boobs is one. Do you want to get rid of your thighs for women. Exactly. By doing that, as well, you can create specific demographics. For the man-boobs one, you can gear your sales copy, and your images, and your colors, and the title of your product towards men rather than trying to capture men and women's interest with a generic weight loss product. It's definitely a great idea to break it down to a specific sub-niche rather than trying to sell to everyone. That doesn't work.

A good way that someone put it to me, recently, was it's harder to catch a small fish in the sea, than it is a big fish in a small pond. That's what you're trying to do, when you're targeting sub-niche.

Robert Plank: That makes sense. The other thing that's great about the internet and affiliate marketing is that you're not limited to just one product. If someone finds, like you said, they find the weight loss product for the man, if there's a weight loss product for the women, and so on, then those are different funnels and things like that that an affiliate could set up.

John Lagoudakis: Yeah. One of the biggest mistakes, Robert, that a lot of people make when they start out with their online business, I've definitely made it in the past, I don't know if you have, Robert, but is that we get excited with all the possibilities, and we have too many projects going on at one time. The counsel I always give to people is, pick one area, one niche, get the marketing right for it, be happy with your sales form and make sure it's profitable. Once it's profitable and you're making money with it, if you want to go to a different area, a different sub-niche or a different niche all together, then great, go for it.

Until you do that, don't have more than one project going at the same time because there's so much involved in getting it right. If you're working on two or more projects at the same time, it's very hard to have success. Then you get discouraged because you're doing a lot of work and no particular project is gaining traction and making sales. Definitely encourage people, when you're starting out, pick one strategy, whatever clicks with you, find someone that's having success with that strategy, learn from them. Do everything they say to the T, until you are having success. Once you're having success and you're making at least a full time income from that one strategy, until you're doing that, don't move on to another one.

What I've also found is there's just so much with even just one niche or one sub-niche, it's better then to go deep. Once you're having success, go deep. Create a funnel where you can sell even higher end products in the back end so you can make more money with that niche rather than going into two niches. It's a better way to go anyway.

Robert Plank: I can totally relate to that. I see a lot of people where I'll give them an idea for a website or a landing page or whatever that they should create, and then they're response is, "If I could make one, I'll make 50." I think well yeah, like you say, get the one working and then maybe get to two. I think we've all had to go through that phase. You have, and me especially, I've gone through that phase for sure, early on where I said, "I'm just going to make 10 landing pages. I'll make 10 opt-in forms. I'll make 10 sequences." I'm pushing the goal post too far out and I'm delaying the amount of time it would have taken me to get to the money making stage. It might have taken three months or it might have taken a month before hand, but how I'm pushing it out to nine months or a year, or probably never, because having to switch all those gears and have all those half finished things. Super discouraging. In addition to what you said, a lot of time, a lot of effort, and no money yet because the focus is too split.

John Lagoudakis: Exactly. Again, I made that mistake when I started out. We get so excited. I see a lot of people making it.

Robert Plank: As far as what you're doing with ClickBank, I know that you said you promoted stuff as an affiliate at first, then you built a list, now you create your own products. You're a top 100 listed seller on ClickBank. What is your setup? Are you all in one niche? Is it spread out? Is it some vendor stuff, some affiliate stuff? What do you have setup on ClickBank?

John Lagoudakis: There might be confusion. Definitely, I achieved the 100 ClickBank affiliate status very soon after I started with internet marketing, but I no longer sell a lot of ClickBank products. My focus is on my own products. What I do today is two things. I help people that are getting started online, and definitely I'll point them to networks like ClickBank and JVZoo, where they can promote other people's products, but also, Robert, I help people, and this is the biggest part of my business today, is helping other businesses. People that already have a business, they're already selling products. They maybe have an offline business that they're struggling to get online, or maybe they have an online business and might purely be online and they just needed to take it to the next level because they're not making many or not any sales yet. They just want that help getting traffic, leads, and sales. That's where I focus my time today.

Robert Plank: What you're saying is that where you focus your time on today is with coaching clients? Is it more coaching clients and less of selling your own stuff?

John Lagoudakis: It's a bit of both. You have to be doing it yourself as well to coach other people and to keep up to date. It's always changing. I have a business that is not internet marketing, is not in the internet marketing space, if you know what I mean. It's separate to my coaching business. I have actually two businesses that is not IM related at all. That allows me to, again, keep up to date. Keeping myself in the real world where I'm promoting those businesses and making sales in those businesses. Then I have the coaching business where I'm able to help people, again, anyone that's just starting out online, or those that have businesses that want to improve them.

Robert Plank: Nice. What I've been hearing all through our discussion today is that when you find something that you want to do, and you do what's practical, and you get it set up and you grow it, and then you get it to the point where there's a next logical step to get to. You started with the affiliate marketing with AdWords, then when the game changed a little bit, then you started building your own list and your own SMS list, so that way you can build it up. Then you started making your own products. Now, you're diversifying into these other businesses.

That's what I've been hearing over and over again. You're not locked into one money making strategy. You're not locked into one particular platform, but you're also giving it a chance to work out. Right? You're having enough focus where back when you started with ClickBank, you spent those two years building that up, then when maybe there were other alternatives to ClickBank, or there were other ways to make money. Some of us might get bored with a certain way of getting a income in. Then you kind of transitioned or you diversified and tried out different ways of making money, as opposed to just being stuck with ClickBank, which might have limited your income as the rest of the world changed around you.

John Lagoudakis: It's definitely not good to have all your eggs in once basket. While I tell people, especially when you're starting up, focus on the one niche. What happened to me, I'll sort of give you an idea of the logical progression. When I first started trying to make money online, I found out about affiliate marketing, about ClickBank. I was using Google AdWords, mainly, to promote the ClickBank products. Then, I started using Yahoo and Bing as well, because they had their PPC platforms, that was while Yahoo Overture was still around. Most of my sales were coming through Google AdWords, about 90% of my sales because that's where most of the search engine traffic is. Then, Google changed their policies. That was, I started in 2007. 2009, around the middle of 2009, Google changed their policies and they said, "No, we're not going to allow ClickBank affiliates to promote products online with direct affiliate links."

Overnight, Robert, I tell you it was shattering. Overnight, my income dropped like 90%.

Robert Plank: Oh no.

John Lagoudakis: It really hurt. However, I knew it was coming so I already started building an email list. Then I spent my time focusing on building my list and promoting my products to my list. Then I decided, instead of promoting someone else's products, I'll promote my own products. I created my own product. It's called the List Marketing System, where basically I set up list building sites just like I've created, for other people. I knew that's where I felt people needed the most help. People coming along wanting to make money, they knew they needed to build a list, but it's so hard to get started. Learning email campaigns and setting up high converting squeeze pages and sales funnels, so I just did all that for them. I set it up for them. I did that and I promoted that mainly through webinars.

I got people onto my list. They went to a webinar and I taught them in the webinar, how to build a list, the importance of building a list, why they need to do it in their business and then how to do it. At the end, I said, "Look, you can do all that yourself or I'll create it for you." That's what I did for a while there.

I went through a rough period. I went through a divorce back in 2011 that was the worst thing ever. You wouldn't wish it on your enemies. You know what the great thing was, while I was going through that, because I had automated a lot of my business, I automated a lot of the way I got the traffic. The webinars were automated. They were evergreen webinars, they weren't live webinars. Even while I was going through a tough period, around two years while I was going through that divorce, my mind was so gone I couldn't really focus on my business at all. The beautiful thing is, because I had set up what I had set up in my business, I was actually having the income coming in. I was just doing the things that I needed to do to keep it running. I was able to have my full time income coming in while I was going through that rough period in my life.

When I got out of that, when things started to pick up for me, mentally anyway, and I could focus again, I got approached by a friend of mine who was starting a business in a different niche. He wanted someone to do the online stuff, like take care of the website and do the traffic generation, generate the leads. I went into partnership with him. That's how I started my first non IM business.

Recently I started a second one because of a need. I had another friend approach me, needed to get leads for his business. I started generating leads for him mainly and then that's sort of grown from there because other people in the industry in other areas of the world are having that same need for those kind of leads. That's how the second business got started.

At the same time, while I was working on those two businesses, again, being out of the IM, Internet Marketing, niche, being outside of that, learn a lot in those two niches as well. I thought I've come back and I said, "There's a lot of businesses out there that need help with their internet marketing." Someone like myself that's got experience, been in the industry many years, eight years full time now, eight and a half years, I've come along and I thought, you know what? I should start a consult and see where I basically help these businesses. Yes, there's a lot of people out there, a lot of Internet marketing consultants and agents and agencies out there.

What I have noticed, Robert, is a lot of them, it's like a mechanic. We dread taking our car to a mechanic because, especially if we don't know much about cars, if we don't know the mechanic, it's 50/50 really. Are you going to get the job done properly? Are you going to ripped off? Unfortunately, in the IM industry, Internet Marketing space, it's the same thing.

That first friend of mine that approached me about his business and wanting me to help him out, for example, he had just recently hired an SEO company that were doing work for him. They'd been on board with him for three months. When I joined my friend as a partner, I had a look at their initial proposal and the keywords they were targeting for him. They'd chosen 20 keywords for him. They said, "These keywords we're going to work for you and if we rank on the first page of Google, this is how much traffic you're going to get."

I looked at those keywords, I did the research. The number they'd given him were a total lie. They were saying he was going to get tens, hundreds of thousands of views for these long tail keywords. I did the research. He was lucky to get five, ten views per day. Actually, it was even less than that. It was less than five views per day if you ranked for those key words.

Robert Plank: Oh no.

John Lagoudakis: Yeah. I saw that. He's not the only one. I've hear many horror stories like that. That's where I come in. I figure, look, I'm going to come to this space because there's a lot of good that I can do. I only do work for clients that I know is going to get results. Actually, I give my clients a guarantee. I say to them, "If the leads I generate for you, if you're not making at least enough sales in profits to cover my expenses, don't pay me."

Robert Plank: Nice.

John Lagoudakis: Again, there's that need, that's why I've come back into that space as well.

Robert Plank: Cool. If people were looking to hire you for something like that, or even just see what you're up to, what website could they go to find out all that stuff?

John Lagoudakis: Thanks, Robert. The website, it's just my name, which it's not easy to spell, but I'll spell it out. It's JohnLagoudakis.com.

Robert Plank: Awesome. We'll also toss that link in the show notes. That way even if people don't have time to write all that down or didn't get all that, we'll link to the John Lagoudakis site.

John Lagoudakis: Great. Thank you for that, Robert.

Robert Plank: No problem. Is that the only website? Do you have the Get Rich Click book? Or is that not being promoted right now?

John Lagoudakis: I was a guest in that book. I think the last edition they did of that was back in 2011. It might have been updated 2013. You can get that from Amazon still. My main site, JohnLagoudakis.com where you can find out more about what I'm doing. You can get in touch with me. Also on my website, I do have something that may interest your listeners, Robert. That is, I have a Platinum Online Business Coaching Program. What it is, it's video training I've done myself, step-by-step video training on how to go from choosing your niche all the way through to creating your sales funnel, and even driving traffic and making sales online. All of that's free. Anyone, you go to JohnLagoudakis.com and you click on the banner there, follow the Platinum Online Business Coaching Program, you can get free access to that right now.

Robert Plank: Awesome. They should all go there right now. One more time, it is JohnLagoudakis.com. Thanks for being on the show today, John, and sharing your unique insight and your story, and all that kind of cool stuff.

John Lagoudakis: Thank you, Robert. Appreciate you having me on.